I'm an unreconciled HRC supporter.

I'm an unreconciled HRC supporter.

I think we turned down a return to 90's style peace, prosperity and social progress in favor of an unknown, unquantifiable hunch.  But, that's what we've done, and it's McCain or Obama, meaning for me, it's Obama.

However, it will take a good VP pick to get me to do anything beyond grudgingly voting for the ticket.

John Kerry is being seriously considered?  John "if I knew then what I know now I'd still would have voted to invade" Kerry?  John "too slow on his feet to slam that softball out of the park with 'Bush lied us into war and now our kids are dieing because of it'" Kerry?  John "ha ha funny joke two weeks before the '06 election that almost cost us a few seats" Kerry?  John "end the '04 race with millions in the bank that should have been spent insuring voting machines were fairly distributed per capita in Ohio so there were no three hour lines in urban districts" Kerry?  No thankee.

Senator Webb?  Southern heritage, the civil war wasn't about slavery, states' rights isn't anti civil rights, and confederate memorabilia isn't offensive Webb?  Tailhook scandal and "thunder thighs" women don't belong in the military Webb?  Stop sexual harrassment in the military by excluding women from the military Webb?  If that's what it takes to steal a seat from an incumbent in Virginia, that's fine with me, but no thankee.

Gov. Richardson?  Pick the one guy guaranteed to piss off every Clinton supporter more than any other choice?  Pick a guy with a whiff of sexual harrassment complaints?

Not that he's listening to me, but if it's a woman, it better be Hillary.  And, if it's a man, it better not be someone with a bad record on the environment, women's issues or social issues.


Poll
If it's a woman, must it be Hillary?
Yes
No

Votes: 153
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


My opinion, FWIW. (2.00 / 8)


John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:02:32 PM EST

Re: My opinion, FWIW. (2.00 / 1)

So according to you every Democrat being considered is a scum bag?

Is our party so incompetent as to only have ONE viable VP candidate?

Tell me, how is it fair to someone like Chris Dodd or Biden, both with decades of experience to be passed up as insignificant by someone like you.

Open your blinders, our political system does not hang on Obama and Hillary only.


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:06:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Biden is HORRIBLE on banking, bankruptcy, (2.00 / 3)

and privacy issues, because he represents his Delaware corporate constituency well (and he's BFF with Lieberman, no?  Their sons were each other's groomsmen?).  
Dodd spent a bit too much time at Studio 54, and I'll say no more.
But, if you think I said "every Democrat being considered is a scum bag", you need to read more slowly in the future.  I said those 3 listed were unacceptable to me, and Obama needs to pick a good progressive.
Please go fight /curse with someone else.  Buh-bye.
John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:15:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Biden is HORRIBLE on banking, bankruptcy, (2.00 / 1)

Dodd hung out at Studio 54,  booyah I like him more.

Dodd is a great pick and if his only sin was clubbing in the late 70's then bring him in.

Damn, Dodd was disco dancing?
Man I love our party!


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:30:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Biden is HORRIBLE on banking, bankruptcy, (none / 0)

Ah poor baby wants attention?

Just F-off.

Sorry, someone needed to tell you this.

Don't vote for Obama and whomever he picks as VP. Just vote against McCain.

Also - please go spend time writing worse things about McCain because he deserves it - not Obama.

Thanks!

/soapbox


Obama 08!
by comingawakening on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:27:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Is that what this person said? (none / 0)

NO! They rightfully picked apart a few of the men that are being talked about as VP.

Please show me where this person said "every Democrat being considered is a scum bag" or even insinuated it?

You seem to have a real knack at trying to put words into peoples mouths that they never said or even meant! You have also tried to do it to me.

I for one, agree with this persons run down of the few people mentioned. I also agree that if Obama is going to choose a woman, that Hillary Clinton should be first choice.


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:07:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is that what this person said? (2.00 / 1)

I will stick by my statement but secede the theatrics which are necessary to make a point in internetland.

She framed her statement to say "Here are three candidates and this is why they suck, so your only logical option is Hillary."

I brought up a few other options, the two candidates with the most experience.
She shot down Biden which is fair, I think he was way too soft on Bush.
But then she attacked Dodd for going to Studio54 in the 70's.  
Well I looked it up on the Google and found nothing, I challeneged her to it and got no response so I must assume she came up with a very silly lie.

My main problem with this diary is the absolutism of it.
Her diary doesn't acknowledge the fact that there is at least ONE other candidate that deserves equal recognition.


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:14:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But (none / 0)

you have a tendency to find words that people said or "meant" to say even tho they are not there.

Why not just deal with the actual words the person said?

Obviously this person wants Hillary to be VP. They also said that they will vote for Obama, it is just the choice of VP will determine if and how hard they may work for Obama. This is a legit feeling and a legit comment.

I would also say no to the ones listed in the diary. I would also say no to Biden.


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:36:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But (none / 0)

So does the idea of Chris with Saturday Night fever ruin it for you?

On policy and experience he was my top pick.

I think he would be an excellent VP, he is strong and a tough orator.


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:41:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If you mean (none / 0)

Dodd, I like Dodd. I would like to see him as the Senate Majority Leader.


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:43:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you mean (2.00 / 1)

Hmmm well I never thought of that since that was one of the Hillary options.

But damn Kevin,  you hit that one on the head.
That would be badass.

A little Dodd fluff while were at it:


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:47:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If you mean (none / 0)

The only problem with Dodd is that CT has a republican governor, Jodi Rell, who would undoubtedly replace him with a republican to serve the rest of his senate term.


by Lacy Davenport on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 09:35:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is that what this person said? (none / 0)

HRC should be the first choice if Obama is going to choose a woman as VP?

If he intends to choose a male, where would she rank then?


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:28:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Recommended. We understand that it's (2.00 / 3)

been an upsetting primary season for HRC supporters and that some of you may have some issues with Obama, so that all you can really bring yourself to do is grudgingly nose-holdingly vote for Obama.

But that grudging nose-holding vote is crucial, even if you dislike him and don't trust him, to stop the disaster that would be John McCain, so I'm recommending for that.


by bobdoleisevil on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:07:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Recommended. We understand that it's (2.00 / 1)

Bob give me some precident here, I wasn't as active in 2004.

I was a huge Dean supporter and barely even knew who Kerry was (like I said I followed but not nearly as much now).

I wont lie, when the Maryland Primaries came around I voted for Dean.  Had nothing against Kerry I was just mad how the best candidate got pushed out so quick.

To the more passionate Dean supporters, does anyone have any memory of any kind of Anti-Kerry or Pro-Bush movements carried out by Democrats mad that their candidate lost?

I know this sounds rhetorical but I really dont know the answer.

My guess would be no, so it amazes me that it happens now.
Obama has run such a clean, smooth and transparent campaign I have a hard time understanding why DEMOCRATS would hate him or not vote for him.

When the "PUMA" reps were on Neil Cavuto he evicerated them for that.


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:13:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Recommended. We understand that it's (none / 0)

11% of Democrats voted for Bush in 2004. that was after the war started, as I'm sure you're aware.
Remember all the fear mongering?

On May 26 Attorney General John Ashcroft held a dramatic press conference announcing that Al Qaeda was "almost ready to attack the United States" and had the "specific intention to hit the United States hard." But Ashcroft did not provide any new or specific information, the Homeland Security Department did not raise the terrorism threat alert level, and a senior Administration official told the New York Times that there was "no real new intelligence" to substantiate the warning.

In July, two days after Kerry selected John Edwards as his running mate, Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge held a press conference of his own to say that "Al Qaeda is moving forward with its plans to carry out a large-scale attack in the United States." Again, he did not elaborate on what was new about his statement and was forced to admit, "We lack precise knowledge about time, place and method of attack."

That same month, The New Republic reported that top Pakistani security officials were being pressured by the Bush Administration to announce the capture of high-value terrorist targets during the Democratic National Convention. The White House responded with a standard denial, and the rest of the media ultimately brushed it off as an uncorroborated conspiracy theory.

But on July 29, just hours before Kerry's keynote address, Pakistan announced the capture of Al Qaeda suspect Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani. Curiously, he had been apprehended five days earlier. Even more suspect: The announcement was made at midnight Pakistani time, when most Pakistanis were asleep, but at the perfect time to coincide with America's prime-time television news schedule.

A few days later--during the period when attention to nominee Kerry would traditionally lead to a bounce in popularity--Ridge announced that he was raising the threat level in New York City, Northern New Jersey and the District of Columbia to "Code Orange." He claimed the threat level was being raised because of "new and unusually specific information about where Al Qaeda would like to attack." Undermining his claim that "we don't do politics in the Department of Homeland Security," he wove a campaign-style endorsement of the President into his warning: "We must understand that the kind of information available to us today is the result of the President's leadership in the war against terror," Ridge declared just a few breaths after invoking frightening images of "explosives," "weapons of mass destruction" and "biological pathogens."

But Ridge neglected to mention that most of the information was at least three years old, much of it surveillance data that had been collected before 9/11. Ridge also conceded that New York City--which was already at "Code Orange" before his announcement--would not raise its level of alert.

The Nation magazine, Sept 2004 article

And 11% of Democrats still voted for George Bush.


"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:03:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Recommended. We understand that it's (none / 0)

Yeah, so the fear mongering worked on a few of us (not me).  I hope we aren't as dumb as before, now that we more perspective and context (fool me once...)


by KLRinLA on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:20:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My bet (2.00 / 2)

is that it's going to be Wes Clark.  He will soothe many Hillary supporters and add military gravitas to the ticket.  It's a twofer.


That's it, baby; let's go win this election!
by Beltway Dem on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:17:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My bet (2.00 / 1)

Maybe it's just me, but I really don't get the whole Wes Clark thing.  I read his stuff in '04, have listened to him speak when he's on TV, but I just don't get him.  One thing with him (and this may be one of the things that colors my opinion of him) is that a lot of military guys that I know that were active during Bosnia (as well as a decade or so before) don't have a lot of a love for the guy -- note: I'm not saying all, just most that I know -- they see him as the left's version of David Petraeus (an upwardly mobile sycophant).  I'm really not advocating that opinion one way or another, I'm just asking if it might be something to consider when looking at trying to try and siphon off military families as a possible demographic to poach from the GOP.


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:27:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clark has a great take on the military (none / 0)

's use in diplomacy.

He's a genius, and an excellent strategist.

Woulda made a great president.

Plus, he sees global warming as a national security issue.

He does owe, and give, a lot of loyalty to the Clintons, going so far as to give the boot to any who wouldn't endorse Hillary.

So, yeah, syncophant i can see. and he won't say a word against petraeus, because Clark helped get the guy where he is now.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:35:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My bet (none / 0)

Wow, the left's version of David Petraeus would appear to be a perfect choice, no?


by tomchaps on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:09:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

my sources say... (none / 0)

no way in hell.

Which is a shame (he's a shmaart guy), but he sunk himself deep with the Clintons.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:28:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: my sources say... (2.00 / 1)

I am a big fan of Wes and his son Wes Jr.

I don't think Wes has the "politician" in him for the long drawn out fight.

IMHO of what I know about Wes I don't think he has the campaign in him, he is not a politician by trade.  And I mean that with the greatest admiration.
He is a GREAT military leader and would be a 100% asset to any political organization.
He is going to be guaranteed a spot somewhere in the cabinet.

Now check out this great video of Wes Clark Jr explaining how he embraced liberalism:


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:34:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

don't trust the list being bandied about by the (2.00 / 1)

media. They have no idea who the real VP picks are.


by slinkerwink on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:04:01 PM EST

Re: don't trust the list being bandied about by th (none / 0)

Whoever they pick I hope it is for the right reasons.

Lyeberman was chosen for all the wrong reasons in 2000 and now we wear that as a historical embarrassment.

Whoever we pick let us not go backwards.

We need someone who will win, but we need someone who is in the best interest of pushing policy, dont forget the VP's position in the senate.  

We need a VP that embraces liberalism and a permanent progressive agenda, plain and simple.


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:09:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Better than McCain. (2.00 / 2)

That is what you have to look at.  There are two competing.  Obama is better than McCain on almost every issue.

Glad you are supporting the Democrat.


by TomP on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:04:40 PM EST

Re: I'm an unreconciled HRC supporter. (2.00 / 5)

Respectfully, could you explain to me why it would be wrong for Obama to pick a woman other than Senator Clinton?  Without question, Senator Clinton is qualified to be president and would have made a fine nominee in her own right.  But she's hardly the only qualified female politician.  Indeed, there are candidates out there who are at least as qualified as her to serve as VP.  Given that, I'm never understood this particular argument, which seemingly denegrates other extremely talented female politicians.  


by HSTruman on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:05:45 PM EST

Re: I'm an unreconciled HRC supporter. (2.00 / 1)

because picking a woman just to pick a woman is an insult to HRC voters. Its like telling them they only voted for Hillary because she was a woman, and saying to them "oh look we put a woman on the ticket, vote for them". HRC voters did not just vote for her because she is a woman, but because of her story and accomplishments.


by Lakrosse on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:20:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm an unreconciled HRC supporter. (2.00 / 2)

That's assuming that the woman would be chosen only to have a woman on the ticket, yet Sibelius, for instance, was talked about as a potential vp at least a year ago.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:28:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I would NOT support a Ferrarro (none / 0)

but I would support Sebelius. She's a bright, good person -- and there are TEN reasons to be picking her, before you even think to mention her gender.

Seriously, edit the post? Maybe make it a plea that Obama doesn't choose someone BECAUSE of gender?

Because you really came off a lot different than you seem to be...


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:30:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm an unreconciled HRC supporter. (2.00 / 2)

"because picking a woman just to pick a woman is an insult to HRC voters"

Nice slam on eminently qualified women like Governors Sebelius and Napolitano - assume their presence on the ticket would have nothing to do with merit.


by Collideascope on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:40:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm an unreconciled HRC supporter. (none / 0)

they bring nothing to the ticket. They bring no die hard supporters or supporters at all, and they are less likely to put certain states into play. Hillary was clearly putting West Virginia back into play, as it only went Republican thrice in 50 years before Al Gore, she puts Ohio more likely to be Dem, she's going strong in Kentucky, another Clinton state that Gore/Kerry didn't win or get close to winning. Being a daughter of a governor like Sebelius means nothing to voters. Kerry being born in Colorado earned him 0 percent of the electoral vote in Colorado.  


by Lakrosse on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:11:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You should see Dr. Brin's post (2.00 / 2)

on why Democrats pick veeps. it isn't always for the votes. nor should it be.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:31:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You should see Dr. Brin's post (none / 0)

"Because I could die."
-President Bartlett
The primaries are over!
Focus on McCain
by really not a troll on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:20:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Perhaps you missed the part (none / 0)

where Governor Sebelius and Napolitano were successful executives, popular governors elected by overwhelming margins to second terms in red states?


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:01:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm an unreconciled HRC supporter. (none / 0)

I think there's better choices than Napolitano, but as an Arizonan, I can tell you that she is substantially more popular in Arizona than McCain is.  I believe she would put Arizona in play, certainly more than Clinton would.

Whether the Democratic Party wants to base its strategy on winning Arizona is another story.  But, just saying.


by sneakers563 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:04:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There was a poll from a few years ago (none / 0)

In which Napolitano would defeat McCain for re-election to the Senate by a healthy margin

Here


John McCain
by MILiberal on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:21:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Napolitano (none / 0)

You can remove the Napolitano from the VP list.  Her ego and need for special attention and stroking from the Obama campaign is clearly demonstrated in this article:http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?do cID=news-000002895941


by temptxan on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:44:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Napolitano (none / 0)

That's a different Napolitano.  We're talking about Arizona's governor.


by sneakers563 on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 06:59:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Because it would be patronizing. (2.00 / 1)

If HRC were the nominee, and picked Harold Ford or Gov. Patrick of MASS with a "well, that ought to shut up the AA community" attitude, wouldn't that be offensive?
If you're opicking a women, she's the women who earned it, with 48% party support.  I repeat, 48% party support.
John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:20:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Because it would be patronizing. (2.00 / 4)

I guess my point is that you are assuming that if Obama picks another woman, it's merely because they're a woman.  My point, which you didn't address, is that there are several female candidates who merit consideration irrespective of the fact that their women.  

For example, Governor Sebelius has almost singlehandedly reinvigorated her state party and won statewide office four times in a ruby red state.  Similar experience applies to Janet Napolitano.  Now, I'm not saying Obama should pick either of those candidates, but I think it is disrespectful to women like them when folks imply that their selection by Obama would be nothing more than tokenism.  A proposition that I think is both wrong and hugely offensive.


by HSTruman on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:29:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm not arguing, I'm stating (2.00 / 1)

my opinon, which I do not believe is unique to me.
I will interpret a selection of any other woman as a deliberate, tokenistic slap in the face to Hillary.  
As you would have taken a Hillary pick of Harold Ford or Gov. Patrick, no?
John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:32:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm not arguing, I'm stating (2.00 / 1)

I'm asking you to explain your opinion, rather than merely re-stating it.  I've offered examples of female candidates that I think would make extremely strong VP choices.  I've explained some of the reasons, which have nothing to do with gender.  Your response was to against assert, in a conclusory manner, that the only reason Obama could pick another female candidate was tokenism.  That's not ver persuassive.  

And to answer you question, I would be offended if Hillary had picked Harold Ford because Harold Ford is a terrible candidate who hates progressive democrats.  I would have been concerned about her picking Governor Patrick because he would have hindered her ability to win the White House.    


by HSTruman on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:37:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm not arguing, I'm stating (none / 0)

Harold Ford is so out to lunch that he thought McCain's speech last Tuesday was GREAT!


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:39:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lets put it terms obama-crats can understand (none / 0)

lets see if we can make you understand this. If Hillary were the nominee and she chose another black man instead of obama to be her VEEP would that do it to reconcile you?


by Bornagaindem on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:27:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lets put it terms obama-crats can understand (2.00 / 1)

I wouldn't need to be reconciled in the first place, since my priority has always been - and remains - electing a democrat.  I would have  happily supported Senator Clinton if she had won the nomination.

But thanks for your charming tone and nonresponsive comment, which again utterly fails to address why a Clinton supporter would be offended at Obama picking a qualified and talented female politician other than Senator Clinton.  


by HSTruman on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:35:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lets put it terms obama-crats can understand (2.00 / 2)

Because if a particular candidate/woman won the primary states by 67 delegates representing 34.5 million voters and another candidate won the caucus states and got +205 delegates by winning the majority from those 1.1 million voters she/the first candidate loses by the rules but she is still the stronger candidate.

She won those hard fought states not because she was a token woman but because those voters liked her the best and liked her ideas the best. When the other candidate wins by such a small percentage of voters it would behoove him if he cared about winning in November and the party to choose that very strong candidate as his running mate. It would be magnanimous and it would unify the party. Should he choose not to do that I question his credentials as a democrat and as uniter.

Simply choosing a token doesn't do it. Just like Hillary would not have even considered using a token black to try and win back black voters. It would have been seen as an insult and it woudl have been.

Why is this difficult?


by Bornagaindem on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:00:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lets put it terms obama-crats can understand (none / 0)


So what seems to be a large point that you fail to recognize is that if Obama say picked Dodd, you would be less offended than if he picked Sebelius.  Right?  

Ok, think about that for a while.  Does it strike you odd that Since Dodd is a guy you weren't as pissed, but Sebelius being a woman, makes lightening bolts go through your head.  Why?  Why would it?  She is just a politican like Dodd, why is the fact that she is a woman piss you off so bad? So is there something unique about Hillary that makes her the only competent women out of all the other "interchangeable ones"? (I say interchangeable in reference to your "token" remark to describe the other two extremely successful women).  And looking at their records it is fair to say they are at least as qualified as Hillary, if not more so.

Seriously think about that, the fact that you would be offended if another woman was asked for VP would seem to go directly against feminism and equality.

I am not calling you a sexist, just think about what you are saying


by KLRinLA on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:40:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ford yes, Patrick no. (none / 0)

Ford is a sellout and an asshole. No redeeming qualities to the man, other than he's cleaner than the rest of his family. Also, do we really need a hothead on the ticket??

Don't know much about Patrick, but I figure you can do a whole hell of a lot better than Ford! Rangel, maybe?

Believe it or not, Hillary would have chosen Obama because he was the best at mobilizing the black demographic.

If Obama can choose someone with Hillary's pull (if there is such a thing, for goodness sakes!), I'm all for it. Just not Hillary, she doesn't seem to do the second in command so hot, and I don't want a democratic Cheney (even if you do).


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:38:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm not arguing, I'm stating (none / 0)

"As you would have taken a Hillary pick of Harold Ford or Gov. Patrick, no?"

Sad and pathetic.

Neither Ford nor Patrick has the qualifications of Sebelius or Napolitano.


by Collideascope on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:41:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why do you say that? (1.00 / 0)

Patrick is awesome.
Ford has a great electoral record.

John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:53:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why do you say that? (2.00 / 1)

Ford's electoral record consists of winning in one of the most democratic congressional seats in the country and losing a Senate race.  His record is pretty terrible across the board.

I like Governor Patrick, but he has not had a good run thus far since winning.  In my view, he'd make a better AG or Supreme Court Justice than VP.

Both Napolitano and Sebelius are objectively much stronger candidates.  In terms of Geography and electoral experience.  I'd still love to know how anyone could claim those two aren't qualified on their merits.  


by HSTruman on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:09:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

For the One Hundreth Time (none / 0)

The Clintons cannot pass the vetting process, nor will they allow themselves to be vetted.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:58:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Because of the constant barrage of (2.00 / 3)

the progressive community like kos and other sites droning on and on and on and on and on "any woman except Hillary...."

THAT was as sexist as "any black man except Jesse" was racist back when Jesse Jackson ran.  Sadly, the young progressives of the party clearly do not get how sexist it was and how much it hurt women.


by Jjc2008 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:24:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Because of the constant barrage of (2.00 / 1)

I don't know what KOS has said, but speaking only for myself I think there are more than a few extremely intriguing female candidates out there that should be considered for VP.  On their merits, not "merely because they're a woman."  

By the way, most Obama supporters agree with you that Senator Clinton was exposed to repulsive sexism during the campaign.  I just don't think assuming that female candidates other than Senator Clinton would be "token" selections does anyting to heal those wounds.  To the contrary, I think that kind of assumption is offensive and perpetuates the myth that women aren't qualified to run on a national ticket.  


by HSTruman on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:32:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And you don't get what a slap in (none / 0)

the face that would be; you really don't get how condescending that would be?
FACT: Hillary can bring not only voters, but workers, to the ticket.  Whether some of you agree with the facts or not, it is true....votewise this was close....so close.  That means the half of the people participating in the primary feel would FOR SURE come out to vote.

But by picking another woman, one with half the name recognition, not even close to the worldwide respect Hillary Clinton gets (you do know that despite the hate from Americans, a lot of it spurred by 15 years of neocon narrative, Hillary Clinton is beloved around the world), you would be essentially saying to these women: we understand you want a woman, but honey, let us pick the woman  for you.  PLEASE DO NOT DO THAT.  
It would be talking down to women and I guarantee women would resent it.


by Jjc2008 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:14:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Has anyone taken into account (none / 0)

that she may NOT want to be Vice President, and may be ok with another woman herself?


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:56:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary will do what is good (none / 0)

for the country.  If taking second place will make sure we recapture the WH, she would do it.  Despite what the media says, HRC is not about ego.  


by Jjc2008 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:32:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary will do what is good (none / 0)

for the country.  If taking second place will make sure we recapture the WH, she would do it.  Despite what the media says, HRC is not about ego.  


by Jjc2008 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:32:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Except (none / 0)

Obama got a nice bump out of the win, which means he may not need Hillary on the ticket and she doesn't HAVE to do it.


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:51:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And you don't get what a slap in (none / 0)

You have explained to me why you would be angry if Obama picks anyone other than Clinton.  Fair enough, I understand that argument.  You have not addressed why it would be particularly offensive for him to pick another qualified female candidate.  

I still think your position relies on the assumption that Senator Clinton is the only qualified woman.  I think that is incorrect and patently offensive to strong candidates such as Governor Sebelius and Napolitano.  Who you are implicitly calling unqualified on their merits.  


by HSTruman on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 09:22:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm not sure I understand your position. (2.00 / 1)

I know people who have commented that Hillary makes them want to vomit (in terms of character, mind), others that say they can't stand Hillary, and yet others who say that they didn't approve of the Clintons and still don't. (the first two are going to vote for Obama, I believe, and the third is seriously on the fence, despite not wanting to leave Iraq).

These are all Republicans.

When someone makes a cold analysis that says "damn, republicans really hate hillary" And another cold analysis that says, "why not a Woman? hillary proved it could be done."

Is it sexist to note that Dauphin County went for Obama, outperforming similar counties in Ohio, because there are more Republicans in the county?? Maybe some people listen to their more rational neighbors.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:42:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No other woman (none / 0)

has the respect worldwide that Clinton has.  She is a positive for foreign relations.  I know SOME Obama supporters refuse to see it or don't get it: Hillary Hate is an American phenomenon, propagated by the right wing machine and pushed for 18 years.....and sadly it has become ingrained in some.  I have heard young female Obama supporters swear some of the right wing lies are true.

A smart nominee wants someone on the ticket who will bring out voters, who will bring in votes.  This country is split pretty evenly.  Hillary Clinton can deliver, not only millions of voters, but workers...the women who have been doing GOTV long before it was "cool" to do it.  

Tell me one woman, Sebilius, McCaskill that has been vetted like Hillary, that can guarantee workers and turnout; that is loved in other countries and would be welcomed by many.

To pick another woman as an "appeasement to women" would be an absolute insult.  It would be treating women as if we are children....it would saying "we know you want a woman and that it's long overdue that a woman got the respect, but, honestly girls, you all backed the wrong woman.  We, the smart men, are going to tell you what woman you should pick."  The hair on the back of my neck just went up typing this.  I simply do not think most men, or young women who have not been talked down to for decades, can get it.  And that is going to be a problem.


by Jjc2008 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 09:19:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm an unreconciled HRC supporter. (2.00 / 3)

Kosnomore,

Thanks for sharing your feelings on this issue.  As an Obama supporter, I think that these things do need to be taken into consideration, with respect to picking a VP.

rec'd


Obama/Adam West or Bruce Campbell or Lucy Lawless '08
by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:09:54 PM EST

Thank you !!!! (2.00 / 1)

That's really the kind of conciliatory attitude we need more of.
More comradery and consideration, less triumphalism.
Thanks.
John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:24:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you !!!! (2.00 / 1)

Hey, we all get crazy at times.  Most of us have probably gone overboard at least once during this primary, (I know I have).

Cheers, and keep up the good fight for the Dems!


Obama/Adam West or Bruce Campbell or Lucy Lawless '08
by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:33:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you !!!! (2.00 / 3)

I'm not sure why you expect others to be conciliatory towards Clinton supporters. It's kind of strange that you continually search for that post after post.

I didn't expect a flood of support and love after Edwards lost. I accepted the facts and moved on to my next favorite candidate.

But I digress. I personally don't want Hillary on the ticket. There are too many Democrats that are viable as V.P. selections that it would be good to build up the bench of names. Hillary can use her power in a more meaningful spot in the senate.


!
by alex100 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:35:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you !!!! (none / 0)

"I'm not sure why you expect others to be conciliatory towards Clinton supporters."

Because it's helpful, and the right thing to do.


Obama/Adam West or Bruce Campbell or Lucy Lawless '08
by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:49:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Because if it's what it takes (1.00 / 0)

you DO IT if you want to win.
It's called campaigning.  D'uh.
John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:54:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Because if it's what it takes (none / 0)

Well, I wouldn't have put it SO blantantly, but that's the gist of it.


Obama/Adam West or Bruce Campbell or Lucy Lawless '08
by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:39:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Because if it's what it takes (none / 0)

I think most of us on blogs don't need to be petted to figure out what is better for this country.

Anyone who voted Clinton  and now thinks they'll vote mcCain or won't vote at all because they've been "mistreated" by Obama supporting bloggers need to refocus on policy differences between two remaining candidates.


!
by alex100 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:20:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary is not the Everywoman. (2.00 / 3)

"If it's a woman, it must be Clinton" is as sexist as stating "the VP has to be male; we mustn't try two firsts on the same ticket."


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:11:49 PM EST

What a sexist diary! (2.00 / 4)

So you want to disqualify every other woman in America except the one you wanted? That is the most sexist thing I've heard, by far, in this campaign.


John McCain supports privatizing Social Security.
by Travis Stark on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:12:38 PM EST

Re: What a sexist diary! (none / 0)

No it's not.....not when so many lefties were proud to say "ANY woman except Hillary....."
that was the most blatant sexism and it came out post after post at kos, a site I consider to be blatantly sexist.
by Jjc2008 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:21:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No one EVER said Any woman but Hillary. (2.00 / 4)

At least not that I saw. What a bunch of people said is that they were more than happy to vote for a woman, that in fact it didn't enter into the equation, but that Hillary was not that woman. This is the very definition of non-sexist, whereas you are automatically ruling out every woman in America, save one, because of their gender. That is textbook sexism. In fact, I'd say that's the most extreme sexism I've ever heard.

Let's put it this way. You're saying that as far as qualifications for President, there's Hillary, then there's every man in America, then there's American women. No, worse than that. You're saying that American women, save Hillary, are not even to be considered.

Congratulations. You just set feminism back a few decades.


John McCain supports privatizing Social Security.
by Travis Stark on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:31:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

here here (none / 0)

there's a whole lot of truth to this statement.


!
by alex100 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:38:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No Travis (none / 0)

I have read too much of your spin and nastiness.  I know what I read and I know what it is.  If you don't get it, that's your problem.  Don't lay it on me.


by Jjc2008 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:32:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No Travis (none / 0)

MY spin and nastiness? Please, do provide examples. That's a pretty convenient excuse for blatant sexism.

You may think I'm trying to be cute or amusing with this argument, but I'm not. To say that Hillary is the only woman who can be VP is sexist, and hypocritical, and anti-feminist. I don't honestly believe that Obama will choose a woman now anyway. Enough of you have made this ridiculous statement to have ruined that opportunity for another woman. I also don't believe Obama will choose Hillary.

If it's any consolation, I'd put the odds at 50/50 that John McCain will choose a female running mate to pander to the disaffected Clinton vote. I hope that helps. Someone like Elizabeth Dole perhaps.


John McCain supports privatizing Social Security.
by Travis Stark on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:47:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No it's not (none / 0)

You pick someone for what they can bring to the ticket to get elected. Politics 101.  
Often, candidates from the so called "intellectual northeast" (a press spin) will pick someone from the south....thinking southerners are turned off by the northeast intellectual snootiness....
Sometimes and easterner will pick someone from the west if they think they can get some of those votes.

It's all about winning the WH.
No women in American politics today, not Sebilius or McCaskill or even Pelosi has as much solid support from women voters as Hillary does.  None of them has the love and respect Hillary has abroad.  Not even close.  As I said in other comments here, just because the male dominated press has been able spin lies and myths to to perpetrate hate for Hillary Clinton for 15 years does not mean the rest of the world is so gullible.  Hillary is well respected abroad and this would be good to have her representing the USA.  Whether you will ever admit it or not, there is a reason why women around the world LOVE Hillary Clinton.  In a world where so many women are oppressed, live in dangerous circumstances where their gender makes them victims,  a woman with the guts to stand up to the oppressive Chinese government impressed us.  There are lot of examples where women around the world looked to Hillary Clinton as a reason to have hope for women.  
If Obama picks another woman to "appease" female voters it will backfire.  It will come off as "talking down to women....." the old "we know you women want a woman in the slot but you ladies just aren't smart enough...let us pick the woman for you."

Sorry Travis.  You don't get it. I doubt you ever will even try to get it.


by Jjc2008 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:05:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I get it. I really do. (none / 0)

Your candidate lost, and you believe her to be the be all and end all of candidates. She isn't, but I admire your devotion. You also believe that since she can't be President, then god damn it she certainly deserves to be vice president, even though that's a totally different job. Hillary, is, in fact, much more qualified to be a presidential nominee than a VP pick, but you're never going to open your mind enough to understand how the a whole ticket can end up much less than the sum of its parts, so I won't bore you with the explanation.

I also understand that you are so blinded, that you would rather see no woman get the role of vice president than for your pick not to get it. This is reminiscent of a child who will destroy a toy to avoid sharing it.


John McCain supports privatizing Social Security.
by Travis Stark on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:08:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No you do not Travis (none / 0)

I am not blinded, nor am I stupid and I do not need you to talk down to me.  
Unlike some of you, Hillary and a lot of woman see possibilities in all positions.  We see the change to make sure the best in terms of getting the job done is in place.  Women are not so much about ego as about getting the job done, even if we have to do it ourselves.

Name call all you want. You continue to confirm over and over that you are all about control and being the boss.  Typical.  Sorry, condescend to your heart's content.  You will not bully me out of what I know to be true.


by Jjc2008 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:36:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No you do not Travis (none / 0)

Believe what you want. I personally choose to not rule out virtually 100% of females from a job because of their gender. You don't see that as wrong. I'm comfortable with my position.


John McCain supports privatizing Social Security.
by Travis Stark on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 08:54:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Do you know how many women (none / 0)

over the course of this campaign told me they don't want Hillary Clinton to be their first President?


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:05:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

jjc2008 (none / 0)

cite your damn sources, and quickly.

otherwise, you're getting a troll-rating.

(kos posts here, so it's warranted under site rules).


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:45:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Troll rate until (none / 0)

your heart's content.
I know what I read.  And I am not going to spend my time looking through countless hate diaries from there.  
I don't care where kos posts.

I found that statement offensive then, argued it on that site, was trashed on that site.  
So troll rate me.  
I find that statement as sexist as I found the "any black man but Jess" racist.  If you have a problem with it, troll rate.  Not like it is new to be troll rated by the Obama folks and/or Hillary Haters.


by Jjc2008 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:35:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Kos is a lot more anti DLC (none / 0)

than sexist.  Progressives in general are anti DLC.  Jerome was at one time, even wrote a book called Crashing the Gates.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:01:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And I read the book and went to the site (none / 0)

and posted. I had a few diaries recommended.  And then it started.  The arrogance that went against the meme of the book.  That site became a one issue site.  Hillary's "war" vote made her the evil satan.  It did not matter anything she did for civil rights, children's rights, human rights....it did not matter that her history has proven her to be a true progressive.  It does not matter that her vote was NOT for war but for given the president powers IF the inspectors were banned and the president himself LIED to those who believed that one negotiates from a position of power.

In Crashing the Gate, the argument is for democrats to not be mired in the tunnelvision of one issue. And yet, that is what the anti Hillary clan became.
Hate rhetoric, calling her a war monger, and refusing to see any gray areas......typical of how democrats lost over the years.  

So no lectures. I was stunned at what that site did and allowed. I still am.


by Jjc2008 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:43:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll not bring out the laundry list (none / 0)

of warlike statements and votes by Hillary, they are well known to all, and the primary is over.  Suffice it to say that those unprogressive statements and votes did not go over well at Daily Kos or Huffington Post or any number of liberal blogs, which is the reason she never cracked much more than ten percent in any straw poll.  So, yes, foreign policy is way more important to a great many of us progressives than any domestic issue, especially if people are dying.  


by ReillyDiefenbach on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 08:06:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What a sexist diary! (none / 0)

How is that sexist?  All that says is "I don't like Hillary".  


by sneakers563 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:07:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm an unreconciled HRC supporter. (none / 0)

Your first two paragraphs say it all.  After eight years of a Republican I loathe, a Democrat I neither like nor trust is a step up.


by InigoMontoya on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:13:23 PM EST

Wesley Clark (none / 0)

Get used to the idea. I've been calling it for a while. I'm pyschic.


Gobama!
by USArmyParatrooper on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:13:31 PM EST

I'm not only pyschic, but I'm also psychic (none / 0)


Gobama!
by USArmyParatrooper on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:16:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ricky: Lucy, you need a psyachiatrist !! (1.00 / 0)

Lucy:  WAAAAAH !


John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:25:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wesley Clark (none / 0)

He does seem like an interesting possibility, though his lackluster primary performance doesn't inspire much confidence.

This is Obama's race to lose, and the worst thing he could do is pick someone who looks good on paper but can't keep up in practice. That's got to be a real concern when looking at Clark.


by werehippy on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:22:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Candidates with little campaign experience (1.00 / 0)

tend to choke.
I'd prefer someone who knows how to work a crowd, and answer off the cuff.
John McCain says he would stay in Iraq for 100 years? That's crazy talk!
by kosnomore on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:27:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

he's been training (none / 0)

and he's been on fox news enough to know how to talk.


His head is bowed. He thinks of men and kings. Yea, when the sick world cries, how can he sleep?
by RisingTide on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:46:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wesley Clark (none / 0)

Ordinarily people vote almost entirely for the Presidential candidate. So long as he doesn't pick someone with excess baggage he should be fine.

McCain loves to do that conscending chuckle when addressing Obama about Iraq. It would be kind of hard to do that to a four star General.


Gobama!
by USArmyParatrooper on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:52:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wesley Clark (also) (none / 0)

his lackluster primary performance

The Democratic Primary, the Republican Primary and the General Election are three completely different races.

You can take a fantastic NASCAR driver, put him in a Forumula 1 race and he won't even be competitive.

I think Clark is better suited for the GE, and he's a fantastic compliment to Obama.


Gobama!
by USArmyParatrooper on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:02:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ten Hut! (none / 0)

Wesley Clark would be a great pick.  A good man to have around in a crisis, smart as hell, military and foreign policy experience out the ying yang, Southern white male, Hillary supporter.  


by ReillyDiefenbach on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:06:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wesley Clark (none / 0)

Check out the The Young Turks radio show.  Wes Clark Jr was a regular cohost before he got his new job(selling windmill products globally).

Here is TYT's take on Wes Clark running:


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:43:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm an unreconciled HRC supporter. (2.00 / 1)

I recommend staying off the blogs for a while, and instead go to local Dem offices and/or just spend some time talking to offline people.

The internet can enlighten but it can also distort mightily. Spend some time thinking about your choices rather than watching anonymous people argue in blog postings, and do your research unmitigated by someone else's opinion.


Know Your Rights!
by BobzCat on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:16:44 PM EST

Re: I'm an unreconciled HRC supporter. (2.00 / 2)

but if it's a woman, it better be Hillary

Or what?


Users who are excessively bashing the Democratic Party, or being Republican trolls, will be banned.
by Massadonious on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:18:43 PM EST

Or Obama will lose a substantial block (2.00 / 1)

of proven workers.


by Jjc2008 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:20:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

News flash: (2.00 / 1)

Most women are already behind Obama. We don't need (or want) the Har